Sunday, November 15, 2009

Post-Cincinnati part II thoughts

Give credit where credit is due, Cincinnati defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer coached himself a heck of a ball game Sunday.

Individually, Cincinnati's defenders aren't all that good. In fact, they're largely the same group that has lined up for the Bengals the past few years - with a few notable exceptions.

But people have said that about the Steelers for years as well.

Sometimes scheme can outperform ability.

It did Sunday for Cincinnati.

© Cincinnati's offense didn't do a whole lot again against the Steelers, picking up 218 yards.

That's why it's kind of funny that quarterback Carson Palmer spoke after the game about how they outschemed the Steelers in the run game and in the play-action game.

Hey Carson, you outschemed the Steelers to the tune of 61 rushing yards, 157 passing and four field goals.

No, this day belonged to Zimmer.

© Ben Roethlisberger was off all day long in this one, overthrowing open receivers on a number of occasions.

Many of his throws were high. Again, credit Zimmer for keeping Roethlisberger in the pocket and for some well-timed delayed blitzes that kept Roethlisberger from stepping into his throws.

© The injury to Troy Polamalu is troubling.

Including Sunday's loss in which he played exactly one defensive series, the Steelers have won 13 of of the past 15 games he's started.

They're 2-2 when he doesn't play.

There's no word yet on Polamalu's status, but he pulled himself out of the game, so obviously he felt something wasn't right.

© That's seven consecutive games the Steelers have allowed a return touchdown, including three-straight home games that they've given up a kickoff return touchdown.

The defense has allowed 11 touchdowns all season.

Mike Tomlin joked following the game that he'd put himself out there if he thought it would help the kickoff coverage team.

But a call to Anthony Madison, who's unemployed right now, might be in order.

Keiwan Ratliff was inactive Sunday and rookie Keenan Lewis went down with a rib injury.

Ratliff could be released or Lewis could go on IR to make room for Madison, who was the Steelers' leader in special teams tackles in 2008.

© Chris Kemoeatu was the only Steelers player named to Sports Illustrated's midseason All-Pro team by Peter King.

Sunday, Kemoeatu gave up a pair of sacks to somebody named Johnathan Fanene. He also was penalized once for holding Fanene.

I'm pretty sure Fanene was not on King's All-Pro team.

Just saying.

© I'm sure Steelers fans are hitting the panic button right now after being swept by the Bengals.

But really, the Steelers still control their own destiny.

Sunday's loss will likely cost the Steelers any chance of a bye in the playoffs and could mean they might have to settle for a wildcard spot, but outside of Indianapolis and New England, who in the AFC playoff picture scares anyone?

Don't think for a second the Steelers wouldn't welcome a third game with Cincinnati.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

Madison is a Colt

Anonymous said...

Madison isn't currently available. Turn on your tv. Colts picked him up earlier this week.

adamg said...

Dale, any idea why Arians didn't try to roll the pocket to defeat Cincy's defense? Also, the Steelers seemed to be having pretty consistent success running off tackle, but also seemed to abandon that play.

Anonymous said...

Ben looked like a rookie today. What a day to pick having an off game. And Troy being injured worries me.

Anonymous said...

Dale, Any ideas on how to fix the Steelers offensive or defensive play on third downs? It's a mess. thanks again DaveW.in Las Vegas

Patrick said...

That was kind of funny when they showed Madison getting thrown around tonight. One play though and the Patriots were more to do with it than Madison.

I honestly think the Steelers should let Logan go and replace him with a kickoff specialist. I just don't know how else to fix the kicking game. But I also don't know what other kickoff specialists are justting at home right now available to sign.

And Jeff Reed isn't supposed to tackle, but he could have thrown his body out to slow the guy. Not once but twice this season.

Either way this game was ugly and looked like a hangover game. Pretty much a disaster day and if the Steelers want the division they need to run the table or maybe only lose 1 more.

But I would very much like going to Cinci in the playoffs and winning.

Anonymous said...

Don't think for a second Cincinnati wouldn't love a third opportunity to beat the Stealers; except this time with refs that weren't paid to keep their flags in their pockets until a Stealer FINALLY did something so egregious that they HAD to call it.

Who-Dey! Not the Stealers today!

rocket9 said...

The Bengals did a terrific job today. But I know they are going to choke on success like they always do. We still have a chance to win this division. As bad as the offense played (with all due respect to a superior defensive game plan from Zimmer and Co.) we had many chances to win this game anyway.

Says here that this team won't plumb these depths of ineptitude on Offense again this year. Too much talent and too many experienced champions for that to happen.

I bet the Patriots thought they had that game tonight too. The Bengals haven't won the division yet. Long way to go..they'll have to prove it. My money is on the Steelers still.

Anonymous said...

I was hoping the Steelers would run a little more. It was obvious early on that Ben was having a bad day and the Bengal defense was doing a good job in pass defense.

JohnStofa said...

Wow. Bordering on delusional.

Stats for both teams mirrored each other with 226 net yards to 218 and 3rd down conversion rates below 30%.

I see these two teams as very closely matched, and I wouldn't want to see the Steelers a third time either because you have a damn good team and all of us know its a lot to ask a team to beat its doppelganger 3 times in one season. Conversely, they just walked into YOUR building, and they won.

If I'm a Steeler fan, I might not be afraid to play them again, but Cincy wouldn't be my first choice to face in the playoffs.

marc said...

double coverage on deep receivers...check.

strong pass rush and frequent blitzes...check.

QB having an off day...check.

what should you do? screen pass or swing passes daddy. that's what my 8 year old said seated on the couch next to me.

cincy's D was great and they deserved every part of that win. but, BA has proven that when he panics he abandons the run and lacks creativity.

let's keep banging our head against the wall, sooner or later we'll bust through...right?

keevin said...

i blame Arians more than Ben. Arians is an idiot, he was thoroughly out-coached

Dale - Why don't we bring Donovan Woods back? He was really good on special teams

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Harl said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

How about them Steelers. I'm the most happy guy in town to day!

marc said...

46 pass plays called
16 run plays called

way to mix it up arians.

the only reason arians has a job is because they won a superbowl and he's riding BR's coat tails all the way to the bank.

Anonymous said...

Dale, Did the Steelers even try the no huddle or the muddle huddle today? It looks like Ben has more consistency with this style of offense.Thanks again as always Dave W. in Las Vegas.

keevin said...

well said Marc, i totally agree

Arians is a stupid Browns castoff. He sucked bad last year but since we won the SB, we didn't fire him. BS

Anonymous said...

I don;t understand why the Steelers didnt go into the no-huddle offense at some point in the second half. It was clear that the regular offense just wasn't effective.

superfan99 said...

This was the annual "Bad Arians" game. Every year he calls one game that leaves everyone absolutely baffled.

As aggressive as the Bengals defensive front was playing, why not more WR screens and draw handoffs? (MeMo had runs of 12 and 9 yards off of draws). Arians has been in love with the Mike Wallace reverse lately - they didn't even use it as a decoy yesterday.

That being said, the difference in the game was ST coverage units. The Bengals were unbelievable and the Steelers once again sucked.

Seriously, Scott couldn't believe how much room he had to run on his KR return. The Bengals blocked Logan, and the only other player with a legit shot was the kicker.

Offense vs. Defense - Steelers 12, Bengals 12.

ST - Bengals 6, Steelers 0. Game. Set. Match.

marc said...

annual bad arians game??

i'll give him 4 or 5 good games a year, but that's it. every squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

Slab said...

give me a break on the Arians bashing- the poor KR coverage wasn't Arians fault and that's why the Steelers lost. Ben wasn't accurate today, Holmes dropped a TD, Wallace and Miller both dropped 1st downs- if the players make the plays, the Steelers win again. Some Steelers fans really like to fixate on a coach or player or two and look for reasons to blame them- wierd.

marc said...

@slab,
no one (at least not me) is saying the loss is only arians fault. no doubt, the guys did not play well.

however, i do put it on the coaches to put the players in a position to succeed. it was clear to my eyes that big ben was off. that the bengals were not going to let anyone get deep and that our WR's were having problems getting open.

a more balanced attack slows down the pass rush, takes some pressure of the QB, and forces the defense to honor play action passes. that gives the WR's a better opportunity to get open, etc.

instead, arians decided we were having trouble protecting ben, getting open and hitting our WR's when they were open so lets just throw it even more and hopefully we'll get lucky.

the main problem here, and the justification for piling on arians, is that this is his typically response when flustered and out coached. hit the "pass" button and hope big ben saves his butt.

Anonymous said...

what's weird is you thinking there is nothing wrong with Arians. i guess it's not weird, every fanbase has ignorant fans that don't know much about football

Patrick said...

Tomlin is the top of the food chain. You can blame Arians all you want, but Tomlin could encourage, or overrule plays, to see some more running of the ball.

But lets face it, the Steelers got beat by the Bengals. Twice now. You can blame whoever you want for the losses, but it doesn't change anything.

I'm not an Arians fan really, but he could of called a masterful game and I honestly doubt the Steelers win yesterday. They played uninspired and terrible in my opinion. They were in position to score TD's numerous times and they couldn't - blame that for the loss.

Dr Rosenrosen said...

When in doubt... panic...

Seriously. Relax. This team will go 13-3 or 12-4. They have a cupcake schedule the rest of the way (except for @ Balt). Has everyone forgotten last year. Exact same record of 6-3 coming off a very similar tough loss at home to the Colts where Ben played even worse than yesterday. We closed 6-1 and the rest is history. This team is better than last year.

Also, I won't be surprised to see the Bungals lose to Oakland on the road this week.

Adam said...

Dale,

Any chance the Steelers will take a look at the newly waived Ahmad Carroll? He seems to be a pretty good special teamer.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Dale Lolley said...

Hey, I saw Anthony Madison playing for the Colts too. Glad to see everyone paying attention.

The offense as a whole took a collective No. 2 on the field yesterday. I'm not going to blame it solely on one person. But the quarterback had an off day, his first of the season.
I credit Zimmer's scheme for that.
No, they didn't no huddle. I was surprised by that, but had other fish to fry after the game - namely finding out about Polamalu.

I think the Steelers finish 12-4 at worst. That would mean a split with Baltimore. They'll win the remainder of their games. But Cinci could finish 12-4 as well.

I will say this, until beating the Steelers this week after beating Baltimore, they struggled the week following beating the Ravens and Steelers the first time. Maybe they're learning how to deal with some success. Then again, maybe playing the Steelers after the Ravens helped them focus.

BengalFan4Life said...

Dale, Please allow me to quote YOU: "Really, this is one of the easier picks I've made this season. The Bengals are a legitimate playoff contender, but they aren't coming into Heinz Field and winning. It's just not going to happen"

Feel free to quote me when I say: "Ummm...Right. HaHAHAHAHA." What's next Dale? Are you going to tell us this internet thing is "just not going to happen"? See you in the playoffs (after our Bye week if the Steelers that far!).

Dr Rosenrosen said...

Bengal Fan 4 Life,

First off. That sucks for you. Hope you are old enough to remember the 80's.

Second. Act like you've been here before, even though you haven't.I know this was your Super Bowl, but you sound just like a Bronco fan from 3 weeks ago. I hope your team is celebrating as much as you. Can you say letdown?

Talk to us in January. If you won the division, congrats. It's all moot once the playoffs start. I'm sure you're old enough to remember 2005, right?

Anonymous said...

"omlin is the top of the food chain. You can blame Arians all you want, but Tomlin could encourage, or overrule plays, to see some more running of the ball.

But lets face it, the Steelers got beat by the Bengals. Twice now. You can blame whoever you want for the losses, but it doesn't change anything.

I'm not an Arians fan really, but he could of called a masterful game and I honestly doubt the Steelers win yesterday. They played uninspired and terrible in my opinion. They were in position to score TD's numerous times and they couldn't - blame that for the loss."

great comment Pat

/sarcasm

you're an idiot

Dale Lolley said...

I was wrong about the pick. Oh well.
That make you happy BengalsFan?
Really, it's no skin off my nose. I'm not affected one way or the other.

marc said...

i don't think anyone is panicking.

however, it would be nice if we learn from our mistakes and maintain a more balanced offense. and i would be interested to know how much influence tomlin has over the direction of the play calling.

dale, can u help us out there?

also, polomalu's status?

Patrick said...

I love the baseless idiot comments, care to expand?

wait, does that just make you the idiot? Since you have nothing to say?

keevin said...

BengalFan4Life - everyone makes wrong predictions sometimes but atleast he isn't a troll

ps - please come back here during post season play so we can all laugh at the bungles losing

Michel Sauret said...

I'm not a pessimist, but I want to seriously ask:

Could the Bengals beat the Steelers three times, like we beat the Ravens three times last year?

I think that's a very likely possibility.

Anonymous said...

Coach Tomlin should of challenged that 3rd down play in the 1st quater for that 1st down. The player was clearly one foot out and the T.V. didn't show the replay until the Bengals hurried up and ran their next play. Enough of the noise for now. Their were a lot of things wrong on a lot of levels in the game for both teams. But if that was the bengals best then they are in for a very rude reality check.See you guys in January 2010 and be ready for a good old fashion beat down. Thanks Dale for everything as always Dave W.in Las Vegas.STEELERS ALWAYS KICK ASS!!!

Slab said...

As to the Arians comments- what exactly would make you Arians haters happy? Because it really seems like every time the Steelers lose, it's Arians fault. Really? 1 undefeated team in the history of the league and a Steelers loss makes Arians an idiot? If of all the reasons the Steelers lost yesterday, Arians is the one that stands out to you, then you are seeing what you want to see.

Robert said...

Arians is a joke. Our offensive playcalling is terrible. Could we PLEASE run the ball even close to 50% of the time cause teams have repeatedly shut down our passing game this year. Our offense has no rhyme or reason to it. Ben just runs around til someone gets open, can we please have a real PLAN out there?

Dale Lolley said...

What have you seen that makes you think this team CAN run the ball effectively against good teams 50 percent of the time?
Their best offensive player is the QB. They have the wide receivers to throw the ball. The QB had an off day Sunday.

Nothing new on Polamalu at this point. I'm still trying to find something out.

marc said...

@slab
1."what exactly would make you Arians haters happy?" - if he were fired.

2."Because it really seems like every time the Steelers lose, it's Arians fault. Really?" - no, never said that, read above postings.

3."1 undefeated team in the history of the league and a Steelers loss makes Arians an idiot?" - no, he was already an idiot and proved it in cleveland. fyi, i live outside cleveland and got to see what he's capable (or incapable) of here.

4."If of all the reasons the Steelers lost yesterday, Arians is the one that stands out to you, then you are seeing what you want to see." - maybe you're right. the players are supposed to execute the plays. it's just hard for a QB to drop back and pass when the blitz is in your face almost everytime and the coach keeps calling the same plays. i don't know, who should be responsible for adjusting the plays to better attack the defense? but, maybe you're right, i'm just focusing on the offensive coordinator whose ultimately responsible for putting his players in a position to succeed.

come to think of it, we should have 46 pass plays and 16 run plays every game. that would be absolutely perfect and drive the defenses crazy. they wouldn't know what to expect. we would have a multi-dimensional (er, one-dimensional) offense utilizing all of its (er, some of its) weapons to systematically (er, sporadically) move the ball down the field and score touchdowns (er, field goals).

deep breath, i just hope #43 is ok.

Slab said...

@ Robert- going into the game were the Steelers ranked top 5 in offense? so you would prefer what exactly? Do you really think playcalling is as simple as run or pass? Do you think the defense knows the play the second it's not handed off? making it a 50/50 mix, has nothing to do with having a plan or making the playcalling unpredictable.

@ marc- now I understand. Of course Arians stinks- he used to be a Brown- excellent reasoning- you were probably a Cowher basher, too.

Gotta take the good with the bad- Arians is the coordinator of a unit getting ready to set all kinds of Offensive records in Pittsburgh- he can't be that bad. Ben had an off day. The Steelers go as Ben goes. Less than a year ago that was the Superbowl, no reason to think it won't happen again this year.

Slab said...

If Holmes catches the ball, they win. If Scott is tackled on ST, they win.

If they hand off 20 more times to Mendenhall, would they have won? maybe, but I have more trust in Arians playcalling than Anonymous, Robert, and Marc's playcalling on Monday morning.....

Vaflyer said...

Here is the part that has me concerned more than anything else....We are now the Baltimore Ravens. Okay, not really, but how many games did we beat the Ravens last year in the regular season? 2. How many could they have won? 2. What happened in the playoffs? They got spanked by us in the Conf. Finals. I do not want us losing to them again, like the Ravens did to us last year.

Now to my real concern....FOCUS. That is it. This team looked tired and like it lacked focus yesterday, but not only then but probably through the week. I bet if Dale asked or was there, he could tell us that practice was not good last week. Not saying for sure, but this team looked like one that just hadn't put in any prep, or at least not the appropriate prep for the game. They thought they could do the same things they did in week 3 and come up with a victory....guess what? It didn't work.

Matt said...

John Mitchell is a "stupid Browns castoff" also, so what's your point again?

Dale Lolley said...

I thought they looked good in practice last week. They looked like crap the week before Denver. That's pretty meaningless.

noel said...

Our defense played well. Their defense played well. We gave up a touchdown on special teams. You have to expect to lose a few games a season.

The Bengals had to work for it and they earned it. No big deal. That return was the only real troubling point for me. I'll worry about the offense if we see see them fail to adapt; I think we will.

It was disappointing though to not see any play calls to try and draw up the safeties or disrupt the Bengals defensive plan. Arians draws up some nice passing plays at times but this was one of those games where I could predict most of the plays from my couch. Surely it was just as obvious to Mike Zimmer. We're not the Colts and Ben is not Peyton Manning. I don't mind the shift to pass first but we just don't have the personnel to impose our will in the passing game the way Manning does.

noel said...

^^^Oops, meant to say I think we will see them adapt in the previous post not that we will see them fail.

Anonymous said...

I'am getting a little worried about the lack of news on Troy's MRI results. I don't have a very good feeling on this right about now.Dave W. in Las Vegas.

Dale Lolley said...

They never release any info. The only way it gets out is if somebody talks. Nobody's talking.

marc said...

@slab,
in no way did i emphasize that since he came from the browns he must be bad.

actually, the point is that maybe i'm more familiar with his history as an offensive play caller than some of you on the blog and that he was so terrible when he was with the browns he got kicked to the curb. don't put words in my mouth.

the fact is the steelers have excellent personnel at the offensive skill positions and average to above average on the line (at this point). the only reason they were top 5 in offense is because of the players and mostly in spite of arians.

i'm not going to say he doesn't make good calls sometimes, obviously he does. that little hand off to moore to the left side early in the game was an excellent play. but, most of the time arians plan is to have the WR's run around and ben figure it out on the fly. imo, arians would have been fired by now for most other teams cause ben is one of 2 or 3 QB's who can play that way. the only reason arians has a job is because of ben roethlisberger, period.

Jon said...

I didn't like the sound of the post-game quotes from the locker room. It sounded like the team is turning on each other, and don't believe in themselves anymore.

And why should they believe in themselves? What kind of team lays that big of an egg in a pivotal division game? What kind of team allows non-offensive touchdowns in seven consecutive games? What kind of team commits personal foul penalties with the game on the line?

They're still a good team by virtue of their talent, but they're not winning anything this year and they know it.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Marc. Please tell me how the Steelers only run the ball 16 times in a tight game. We were more effective on a per carry basis, yet Cincy ran nearly twice as many times. Great teams are balanced, period. We're lucky that we have enough skill to overcome our shortfalls.

And for Dale, what makes me think they can be effective running the ball? Well, I believe, until Sunday, Mendy averaged well over 5 yards per carry. I would say that's pretty damn effective. Take the leash off the kid and let him run.

marc said...

so far this year,

in 5 games the steelers have run the ball 40% or less of the plays and averaged 16 offensive points per game. in 4 of those games they scored 13 points or less.

in 4 games the steelers have run the ball more than 40% of the plays and averaged 26.5 offensive points per game.

twice ben has thrown more than 40 times and the offense scored 13 and 12 points in those games.

this is not rocket science. greater balance equates to more productivity. the bengals stuck with the run, even with benson out, and it paid off for them. i hope arians was taking notes 'cause he got schooled.

Dale Lolley said...

Ah, but I said against a team with a good run defense. What did Mendenhall average Sunday against the Bengals, who had the No. 2 run defense entering that game?

Running for big yards against some soft AFC West teams - the worst division in football - is one thing. Doing it against an opponent with some run-stopping ability is another.

Slab said...

Bengals offense Sunday is your model? Steeler's offense outperformed the Bengals and that was with Roethlisberger playing his worst game in months. The Bengals offense kicked 4 field goals- one of them after an interception return to the 14- Wow that balanced offense sure rocked. Great stats! Football isn't Rocket Science but it sure is more than the "stats" you're citing.

Slab said...

and for what it's worth in the stats department (which is next to nothing)- the colts have the 2nd fewest rush attempts in the league- to the tune of 8-0. but I'll guarantee if manning plays like Roethlisberger did last Sunday, they lose the game.

Anonymous said...

Running the ball, or the threat of it, prevents the defense from focusing completely on the pass. It forces the defense to hesitate which can open up passing lanes and big holes.

Cincy's defense did not respect the run. As a result, they pinned their ears back and put pressure on Ben. I'm not arguing stats. I'm talking about offensive philosophy.

And if you're not going to run, at least utilize screen passes to neutralize the pressure. Now, I'm not placing blame on one person, but someone on the offensive side needs to learn how to make proper adjustments when the gameplan their using doesn't work.

Patrick said...

I think they started the game with back to back screens

Anonymous said...

they started the game by kicking off moron

Slab said...

guy can't figure out a way to give himself a name but calls someone else moron- blogging at it's finest

Patrick hater said...

"Slab - guy can't figure out a way to give himself a name but calls someone else moron- blogging at it's finest"

this idiot makes a stupid comment that has nothing to do with the Steelers or football

blogging at its finest (its not it's you moron)

Patrick said...

regardless of not being able to give himself a name, we were talking about offense and Arians and he brings up kickoffs

marc said...

@slab,
first of all, the bengals ran 2 drives in the 4th quarter of 50 and 54 yards to kick 2 field goals and win the game eating up over 8 minutes of clock. those 2 drives included 10 runs and 6 passes. they basically ran the ball down our throat with their backup RB. yes, i do point to that type of commitment to the run as the balance needed to win a football games in the 4th quarter.

the steelers got the ball back down 15-12 with 7:29 left and went pass, pass, pass then punt. way to panic arians.

second, i knew you would bring up the colts and manning and when you find anyone in the nfl that can run that offense, with that personnel, with that QB, let me know. ben is great, but he is not peyton manning.

and once again, since you fail to comprehend, i do not attribute the loss to arians alone. but it is further justification of why he is in over his head.

similar to yourself.

marc said...

the first 2 plays were quick WR screens which do nothing to slow a pass rush. they happen so fast the pass rushers are hardly up field when the ball is thrown.

to effectively slow a pass rusher down with screens it has to be to the RB so the pass rusher has to honor him as a potential target out of the backfield.

of course, arians apparantly hasn't figured out how to use mendy yet as an effective receiving target. maybe someone will whisper it in his ear for him.

Anonymous said...

Agreed, marc. There were two wide receive screens to start the game. Only one later in the game to MeMO, which was a great play that almost resulted in a touchdown.

Again, Peyton Manning is successful because he can call 3 plays at the line and pick the one that fits the situation. He is always considering down, distance, defensive formation and tendancies...something Arians doesn't seem to grasp that well. And, since PIT never used the no-huddle, I'm guessing BA was calling the shots.

His lack of offensive identity seems to be a major factor in the lack of consistency from game to game, especially against good teams.

Slab said...

marc- the bottom line is this. There are 32 offensive coordinators in the league. Arians is one of them. Arians is the only one that is a defending Superbowl champ. Arians team is 6-3 this season. Coming in to the Bengals game, his team had won 5 in a row. his QB had an off day on Sunday, his WRs dropped balls. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to say he's an idiot and call for his job based on the last year and half's body of work. Obviously, you can look back on any loss and say the playcalling must have stunk because the plays didn't work well enough for the team to win. Using the same reasoning you can call for LeBeau's job to since to quote you- "the bengals ran 2 drives in the 4th quarter of 50 and 54 yards to kick 2 field goals and win the game eating up over 8 minutes of clock". You can't tell me Arians isn't any good based on 1/2 of football. and if you look at the Steelers overall, I say he's doing just fine.

Slab said...

And the 2 WR screens got 15 yards and were followed up with 3 straight runs and then a sack- how does that fit in with the "crappy playcalling is why Ben gets sacked" theory?

marc said...

we simply must agree to disagree and leave at that. this could go on forever apparently.

Slab said...

agreed.

Patrick said...

if only we could all get along so wonderfully. Nice comments from both of you on it all.

I don't think Arians is great, but I don't think the blame for Sunday falls squarely on him either.